Yes, Kerry's concern for everything but our lives is telling.

About as straightrforward a sign of his mentation as a fellow warding off "mind rays" with a pie-plate helmet.

His chin--frightening even if one is well medicated--is a higher priority.

Professor Irwin Corey made more sense.

Those who want to read the broader context of what Kerry said can find it here. You'll note that at no point does he say terrorism is not a threat, only that the extent of the threat has been exaggerated.

It was stupid of the WaTimes to hone in on that one statement without discussing its context. Horsefeathers, of course, understands the important of context, and provides it wherever possible.

I'm sure the survivors of those dead Spaniards will appreciate that, in "context", the threat of terrorism is exagerrated. Thanks for clearing that up Frank.

Stephen, that was a silly retort: as if anyone doesn't take the threat of terrorism seriously, or as if Kerry is somehow responsible for a complacency that leads to bombings in Madrid. Shame on you!

Anyone who wants to read what Kerry said will see that Kerry was not ignoring the threat to terrorism, but pointing out specific areas where it had been exaggerated.

BROKAW: Where has the exaggeration been in the threat on terrorism?

KERRY: Well, 45 minutes deployment of weapons of mass destruction, number one.

Aerial vehicles to be able to deliver materials of mass destruction, number two.

I mean, I -- nuclear weapons, number three.

I could run a long list of clear misleading, clear exaggeration. The linkage to Al Qaida, number four.

That said, they are really misleading all of America, Tom, in a profound way. The war on terror is less -- it is occasionally military, and it will be, and it will continue to be for a long time. And we will need the best-trained and the most well-equipped and the most capable military, such as we have today.

Is there anything there that suggests he doesn't think it's serious?

Thanks for all that "context" Frank. "Occasionally military"!! That's just great. I suppose World War II was "occasionally military" too. Really inspires confidence that you and JFK get it. Give us more context and maybe John ForAgainst Kerry can lull us all to sleep.
And by the way, you should be ashamed of yourself for contextualizing murder.

That quote doesn't make Kerry look any better, since those were claims relating to Iraq & Saddam's regime.

Frank, you just quoted the parts that show exactly where Kerry (along with you) make it plain that you can't comprehend and therefore ignore the threat of terrorism.

Just like you, he pretends that the relevant concerns and case for the threat of terrorism that were made by the President were dependant on whether or not it was possible for them to launch a nuclear attack in 45 minutes, whether or nor they had aerial delivery systems,....

No, no problem here. It's all an exaggeration. Just because terrorists declared war on every American and Jew in the world ( and , of course, every Muslim that didn't believe Bin Laden spoke with the voice of God), and they continue to blow up Jews in Israel, Spaniards in Spain, Iraqis and Kurds in Iraq , even wanted to blow up the French in France for God's sake ( literally, to their thinking!) there's no cause for alarm here.

The fact that they didn't use their Air Force to drop nuclear bombs on Madrid just proves how exaggerated the threat of terrorism is.

Stephen, I doubt Kerry would have referred to WWII as "occasionally military." You're just being wrongheaded about this: he said it was exaggerated and pointed out specific areas where it was exaggerated. I don't see anything where he suggests that we don't have to worry.

Accuse me of psychobabble here all you want, but I've been rading your site now for about a year, and you have a steady disposition to hate. Maybe you didn't know all of what Kerry had said, but you cannot open your mind to seeing you could be wrong, and you just dig in your heels deeper and deeper. Bringing up Madrid -- as if it had anything to do with the 45-minute attack or drone planes which Kerry cited -- was useless rhetoric, trying to leverage a horrible incident for your own prestige. You should be ashamed of yourself, using 200 lives that way.

Cybrludite: that quote was where the WaTimes found the bit that they used. That was what Kerry was asked about.

Grumpy: You need to sign up for those reading courses. That quote was Kerry pointing out how the threat of terrorism had been exaggerated. In what ways. He didn't say we could ignore terrorism, or that it would go away all on its own. He said it was exaggerated, and pointed out how.

Hired Contrarian: we'll see how long your post lasts...

A quick question for you all:

Did VP DIck Cheney exaggerate the threat of terrorism in 2003 when, on NBC's Meet the Press, he said "We know for a fact that [Saddam Hussein] has reconstituted its nuclear weapons"?

A quick question for you all:

Did VP DIck Cheney exaggerate the threat of terrorism in 2003 when, on NBC's Meet the Press, he said "We know for a fact that [Saddam Hussein] has reconstituted its nuclear weapons"?

As the WSJ points out here, Mr. Cheney wasn't the only one who thought Saddam had reconstituted his nuclear weapons:

John Kerry of all people now claims that, because Mr. Kay's Iraq Study Group has not found stockpiles of WMD or a mature nuclear program, President Bush somehow "misled" the country. "I think there's been an enormous amount of exaggeration, stretching, deception," he said on "Fox News Sunday." This is the same Senator who voted for the war after having access to the intelligence and has himself said previously that he believed Saddam had such weapons.

Gee Frank, what delicate sensibilities you possess, ready to discern hate where others might see vigor of expression. I have noticed a certain prissy, delicacy to your own writing style. A veritable hothouse flower. You're forever letting us know what a caring heart you possess, by blackening the character of those who differ with you. You might consider applying for a job policing speech at an Ivy league college.
I wonder if you aren't too delicate to continue running your Johnson website. After all, you must discern "hate" in such comments of his as;
"Why, Sir, Sherry is dull, naturally dull; but it must have taken him a great deal of pains to become what we now see him. Such an excess of stupidity, Sir, is not in Nature."
And how about this.
"You must have taken great pains, sir; you could not have been naturally so stupid."

P.S. No Horsefeathers bandwidth for trolls.

Stephen, answer the question: when VP Dick Cheney was on NBC's Meet the Press in March 2003, was he exaggerating when he said "We know for a fact that Iraq has reconstituted its nuclear weapons"?

When Tenet has had to bridle Cheney in, has it not been because Cheney overstated?

What a great country we live in Frank! A country whose young men and women in the military are proud to risk there lives in a war that many like you wish to pretend isn't happening. Instead you want to carp and quibble about whether threats were exagerrated. The Nazi threat to develop an atomic bomb turned out to have been exagerrated--AFTER we won the war. So what? It's nice to know AFTER we've defeated Saddam that he may not have had actual atomic weapons. Our war was against a tyrant who waged war on us and our allies. Your endless pettifogging quibbles are simply manifestations of a lack of seriousness. Your passion was never to rid the world of the tyrant, but rather to nip at the ankles of those who were undertaking the task. It is shameful that you constantly attempt to besmirch the reputation of serious adults who are doing their best to protect your precious freedoms. Oh and one other thing Frank, re: your last ejaculation---'questioning is not the mode of the conversation among gentlemen'.

A quick question from Idiotarian Frank, who cannot comprehend and remains obsessed with this statement by Cheney:

Did VP DIck Cheney exaggerate the threat of terrorism in 2003 when, on NBC's Meet the Press, he said "We know for a fact that [Saddam Hussein] has reconstituted its nuclear weapons"?

A better question: Do Frank and fellow Idiotarians like Kerry demonstrate a callous and dangerous disregard for the lives and safety of Americans and all members of the free world by making pedantic and specious arguments that

-willfully refuse to acknowledge the threats of terrorism ?
-make arguments that either ignore or willfully distort the truth about who was required to provide accurate information about the existence, capacity and capabilities of WMD is Iraq, and what the basis for authority for military action in Iraq was?

Some answers:

Depends on whether you are interested in the real world, the threats of terrorism, and the truth about the requirements and authorization for military action in Iraq-- or, as Frank, Kerry , and the rest of the idiotarians have demonstrated their interest-- in making pedantic arguments to advance their own amusement and political power with total disregard for peoples safety and lives.

In order to have simply been an "exaggeration", Cheney would have needed to make the same claim after having access to incontrovertible evidence that they had not reconstituted nuclear weapons. There was no such evidence. It was an assessment made based on the available evidence. Others made other assessments.

So what? The only way to make an accurate assessment of anything is to have access to evidence. That was why Saddam and only Saddam was required to provide the evidence or face serious consequences.

The responsibility for providing evidence on its nuclear and all other WMDs was solely that of the Iraqi government, and required their full and unconditional compliance with all mandatory UN Security resolutions.

As a result of that willful refusal of compliance by Saddam Hussein, the Securiy Council called for serious consequences, and the US Congress authorized the President to act as he saw fit, referencing extant UN Resolutions that allowed member nations to use force to bring about that compliance. Nowhere is any statement making anything dependant on anyone's accurate assessment of anything other than Iraq's full and unconditional compliance with all ceasefire agreements and all extant UN Secirity Council resolutions.
---------------------

Another quick answer.
The Kerry quote provided by fellow Idiotarian Frank was about Kerry making pedantic arguments for his own amusement and hoped for political power.

Kerry, Frank, and the Idiotarians not only ignore the threats of terrorism, they continue to attempt to put forth a false case --as if the actions taken by the US somehow required the US to have full and accurate assessments of all of Iraq's WMD capacities and capabilities or are somehow invalidated by finding any specific assessment that is inaccurate in any part. The argument is specious.
--------

Of course the threat of terrorism in Madrid has as little to do with what what Dick Cheney said as the threat of terrorism to the US, Israel, Bali, Iraq, Afghanistan or anyplace else on earth. That's exactly the point.

The bombings in Madrid have everything to do with the threats of terrorism that still exist and continue to be ignored by Idiotarians like yourself and Kerry who prefer to make pedantic arguments for your own amusement and/or hoped for political power.

A quick question--

What can be done about Frank and other Idiotarians like Kerry who continue to demonstrate a reckless disregard for the lives and safety of citizens of the US and free world no matter how many people die, preferring to ignore the threat of terrorism in order to make pedantic arguments for their own amusement and hoped for power?

Please excuse me for pointing this out, Stephen, but I couldn't help but notice that you tried to reframe the question, rather than answer it.

Rather than answering whether or not Cheney exaggerated the nuclear threat (an aspect of terrorism, which, if exaggerated, would justify the Kerry statement you chose to highlight to suggest complacency), you accuse me of "carping and quibbling" about whether or not the threat was exaggerated.

Just very interesting...

Grumpy? I suggest you email George Tenet, who has also seen fit to rein in VP Cheney. Let him know you think such behavior is obsessive.

Frank,
I'll let my answer stand. You may characterize it any way you want. Keep up your shameful and self absorbed efforts to discredit your protectors, those who guard you while you sleep. Perhaps following their success in Spain, al Qaeda will target America before Nov. 2 and help elect your guy. I have offered you an argument. I'm not obliged to offer you an understanding.

That's no argument, merely contradiction! :-)

The only thing being exaggerated is the attempt by Kerry, Frank and other Idiotarians to mislead people into believing that their obsessive faux concern for "accuracy" has any relevance to anything. No one other than Saddam Hussein held the capability and the responsibility for making completely accurate statements regarding the capacity and capabilities of Iraqi WMD.

Lacking Saddam's compliance, the President made a decision for a response based on available intelligence, the requirements of the UN for Iraq's unconditional compliance in providing an accurate accounting of their capabilities and capacities for WMD, and the authorizarion of the UN and the US Congres for enforcing compliance.

Frank, the Carnegie endowment for Peace, and John Kerry lied and continue to lie.

People died and continue to die, most recently in Madrid, Israel, Iraq, and Afghanistan.

More obfuscation, Grumpy. Why not admit you're wrong about this and take your toys home?

Of course Cheney has been exaggerating, or Tenet wouldn't need to rein him in.

Kerry was right.

The WaTimes was wrong to bring it up. Horsefeathers was wrong to raise it again.

Frank,
You have a wonderful 20:20 retrospectoscope. However, you repeatedly fail to grasp an elementary point. Decisions are made without absolute foreknowledge and Cheney supported the President's decision to act against the tyrant. That's why your niggling, carping, prissy, self-flattering, ankle biting seems laughably absurd. Not to mention ungrateful. Do you understand that there are real live human beings laying their lives on the line for you? Have you no shame? You ought to be giving thanks that VP Cheney is taking the war to the enemy instead of parsing phrases like John ForAgainst Kerry.

Did I say I was ungrateful? We can talk about that if you want, after you tell me whether or not Cheney was exaggerating in that March 2003 "Meet The Press" interview. Special pleading that he knew no better will not work, because in September 2003 (same show) he said that he had misspoken, which means of course, that he'd made an error in speaking, not thinking. And yet, even though his March statement had gotten wide coverage, the White House never saw fit to correct his now-claimed "misstatement" at the time.

So what are we left to believe?

Cheney either misspoke or he didn't, had a chance to correct it, and did not; in September 2003, after the war was conveniently concluded, said "oh my gosh, is that what you thought?"

It's really quite simple, Stephen. Want me to draw you a picture?

• Cheney exaggerated on multiple occasions (Meet the Press and other instances where Tenet has needed to rein him in)
• Kerry said, in a January debate, that the threat of terrorism was exaggerated but never said it could be ignored
• You assumed, from the poor reporting in the WaTimes, that Kerry is complacent about terrorism.
• I have proven you wrong to do so.

Any questions?

Frank's niggling, carping, prissy, self-flattering, ankle biting- and deliberate attempts to lie and mislead without any regard for the lives of others is not laughably absurd, it is deadly.

Idiotarians preach a philosophy that leads only to appeasement. Appeasing psychotic madmen who every day demonstrate their unchangeable will to murder is suicidal.
No American citizen- and now, no Spaniard - can say they didn't understand.

Frank lied. People died.

No Frank, it was I who said you were ungrateful. You didn't say it because you are quite pleased with yourself. Puff your chest out with pride at "proving" your point. It's absurd. It's a retrospective judgment equivalent to saying Roosevelt exagerrated the nuclear threat from Hitler. It's so revealing though of your own head in the sand position--just keep demanding that I answer your question. You have your answer; if you don't like it--tough. Life's a bitch. Just suck it up Frank, grow up, be a man and stop whining like a 4yr. old.

It doesn't matter what the accuracy was of any statement made by Dick Cheney regarding the capacity and caoabillity of Sadam's WMD. It doesn't matter whether or not George Tenet agreed or disagreed with Cheney's assesment.

Only Sadam Hussein was capable and responsible for making completely accurate disclosures, evidence, and statements regarding Iraq's WMD.

Saddam refused.

The President made a decision to take military action to enforce compliance as authorized by the United Nations and The US Congress. Including John Kerry.

Since that time, Frank and John Kery lied.
People died.

Four year old's can't be held accountable for their actions. Frank isn't really four years old. He should be held accountable.

THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT IT IS, UNFORTUNATELY, NOT POSSIBLE TO EXAGGERATE THE THREAT OF TERRORISM. ONE IS DEALING WITH PEOPLE WHERE REASON IS SEEN AS WEAKNESS AND FAIRNESS AS VULNERABLITY AND DECEIT AS VIRUTE.

I read nothing but a lot of bluster and evasive ness from you all. No wonder you prefer Bush!

Nothing you have said is germane to the fact that Cheney overstated the nuclear threat, and knew he did, or he wouldn't have later characterized it as misspeaking.

No matter how much you repeat your paltry reasoning, that truth remains.

Aren't you lucky to be living in a free society where your silliness can be answered in the cold light of reason?

Frank,

Your emphasis on whether or not someone spoke perhaps inaccurately on a particular occassion is like rearranging the deck chair on the Titanic as though the position of a particular chair is crucial to survival

Noah, Kerry listed more than this one... I emphasized it only because it's the easiest to fire back with. I could do similarly with all that he mentioned.

Fact is, Kerry was right & Horsefeathers was wrong. And Kerry never said we could ignore the threat of terrorism. Horsefeathers, Grumpy, Bernard, et al have forgotten that.

Frank,
Do you plan to respond to Grumpy's last explanation? If not, please refrain from accusing others of the very evasiveness you practice. I think it is valuable to see how your mental energies are devoted to undermining support for those who are leading and fighting this war. You must be greatly pleased, along with al Qaeda, by the triumph of the anti-Bush, pro appeasement vote in Spain. Perhaps another 9-11 on November 1 will similarly help you and your friends elect Kerry, a man who on his website neglects to mention the war on terror--though he does attack Bush's supposed failures in Iraq. Of course outsourcing of jobs we all know is far more pressing.

Yeah, Frank can name at least a half dozen statements that he has obsessed on and repeated over and over and over for months. I guess even obsessive compulsive Idiotarians like a little variety in life.

What he can't do is a give any reason as to how the statements he obsesses over have any relevance at all to the evidence and judgement exercised in taking militrary action in Iraq. He can't disprove the evidence, he can't give any reason to question the judgements made, he has no alternative plan.

Frankie is real good at playing "what's wrong with this picture." He can spot every little tiny error, no matter how obscure. He just can't tell you what the picture was all about.

That's why they call it Idiotarian.

Frank lied.
People died

Stephen, you're being evasive again. Why do you have so much trouble admitting your mistakes, learnign from them, and moving on?

You're in the mental health biz, right? Heal thyself.

Yes Frank, I do know a thing or two about deranged thought processes. Curiously enough, you illustrate many of those seen commonly in severely disturbed and disorganized minds. One characteristic is the inability to listen to anything except what one wants to hear, and to repeatedly insist one hasn't been heard. It has much in common with the normal mental processes of very young children, but in an adult it's pathological. Frequently one can discern in the obsessive preoccupation with minor details, a failure of mature thinking. This is called pars pro toto, or part for whole mentation. Sometimes obsessions can verge into persecutory delusions, often with some external person, like the President, or even another blogger as the focus. These are often accompanied by defensively grandiose fantasies of knowing better than very knowledgable and intelligent Vice Presidents how to deal with threats to survival. This contrasts with more mature modes of thinking that draw on knowledge of history, and awareness that others may have answers unavailable to oneself. It's a necessary attitude in order to learn anything. Finally one notes that such sufferers make themselves extremely unwelcome amongst their fellow human beings. They seem to walk around with a chip on their shoulders, playing the victim and wearing a psychological sign that says "kick me". They eventually alienate people, even those disposed to like them, by their inability to stop themselves or to examine their own motives. It's like being forced to watch a person bang his head against the wall, over and over, with blood running down his cheeks. After a while you just wish he'd stop or leave. Would you consider removing yourself to another website for fellow head bangers? Like DemocraticUnderground.com.

Quite interesting that you didn't seem to consider self-examination in response to my suggestion that you needed to heal yourself: not for a moment, in fact. I wonder what that says about your ability to help others?

Seriously, VP Cheney's exaggerations are only one of many examples I could cite to demonstrate that Kerry was right and you were misled by the selective quotation from the Washington Times. To go further would be child's play -- anyone could do it.

I don't think I'll remove myself exclusively to another comment board. You'll have to suppress me: in doing so, though, you might be demonstrating your continued closed-mindedness. I am only providing another perspective. I think most of your readers are open-minded enough that they can take it, don't you?

There, you've done it again Frank. You're like those British imams who demand welfare payments while trying to impose their sharia law, and complaining bitterly about their own rights being denied. You're the guy who allows NO comments on his blog. Well, this time your provocative, 'kick me' stance is at least amusing.

I see you have no ability conceive that you could be wrong.

I'll leave it to your readers to determine whether or not Kerry was wrong or complacent about terrorism. I've made my point.

Congratulations Frank! The first step in rehab is the hardest. Accepting that you no longer need to repeat your point over and over and over is a good sign. Now you can work on sitting still and listening; imagine you were a guest in the house of someone who invited you to hear some ideas that differed from those you were accustomed to heariing. Perhaps you'd behave yourself and not provoke your hosts to ask you to leave.

Friendly little bar conversation you have going here. Can strangers join?

If you take out the hedge clippers, lawn mowers, and machetes, and are successful at cutting down all the debris and scrub weedage in this thread, it looks as if a couple things remain to be said.

One. hopefully Kerry will be better at anticipating biased reporting like the Washington Times did. It's true that he never belittled the terrorism threat, but in order to really show the Washington Times off as fools, in the future he's going to have to say the formulaic shibboleths all the politicians resort to in order to prevent being rendered absurd by the press. Bush had the luxury of a written speech when he threw in that token suggestion that the threat was not imminent, and thereby covered his big texas patootsie for the future. Kerry was speaking in a debate, possibly wondering whether some stupid journalist was going to ask him if God was on our side. Kerry will get better at that in the future.

So Kerry didn't say all the nice things about the war that some here would have liked to have said.

What did Kerry say? Why, heck, he didn't even say Bush had exaggerated. He left it open to the entire administration (Powell, Cheney, Rice, Tenet, Feith, Bush himself...), and since he led with the 45 minute deployment, you could even say that there he was saying Blair exaggerated.

Brokaw's question seems pretty specific: where are the exaggerations? Brokaw didn't ask, even if there were exaggerations, was it wrong? Kerry answered Brokaw's question. A politician answers a reporter's question, and he gets pilloried for it?

Did Kerry give the wrong answer, or did Brokaw ask the wrong question?

Kerry answered the question. "Here are the exaggerations." Seems like everyone else here wants to fill in the blanks for questions that were never asked -- except for Noah, who wants to create some cockamamie standard for the definition of exaggeration such that with respect to the threat of terrorism it's not possible. (Well, Noah, let's do the argument of the beard: we'll start with a hypothetical extreme, and whittle back from there. If the Administration said terrorism is such a threat, we have to start monitoring what our fmailies and neighbors do, filing regular reports with the government. Would that be exaggeration?)

Why don't you all just take a breather from this thread for a week or so? Something more important is bound to come up in the meantime.

Frankie and Johnny
Musical accompaniment http://www.rienzihills.com/SING/frankieandjohnny.htm

Frankie and Johnny were sweethearts, oh lordy how they could love
They promised to be true to each other, just as long as there were skies above
He was her man, and wouldn't do her wrong

Frankie and Johnny went walking, Johnny in his brand new suit
Oh Good Lawd says Frankie, Don't my Johnny look cute.
He was her man, but he done her wrong

Frankie went down to the barroom, she went for a bucket of beer
"Hey there Mr. Bartender has my lovin' Johnny been here
He is my man and wouldn't do me wrong"

Frankie obsessed over Cheney, said he told us lies and misled
Frankie believes every idiotarian tale that she was ever fed
Johnny is her man, and he did her wrong

Johnny sold out to the the VC symps, then the Germans and the French
Frankie still believes in her Johhny, though he treats her like a wench
Johnny was her man, but he done her wrong.
---------------------------

Did Kerry give the wrong answer, or did Brokaw ask the wrong question?

Brokaw asked the wrong person a question.

Frankie and Johnny lied
People died.

We're all eagerly waiting for Franky to denounce Johnny for taking European lovers. Unless, of course he invented those "looked me in the eye" liaisons.

This, I guess, is an attempt at humor?

Frankie

So playing find Waldo with a terrorist threat makes you the hero…
Are you mentally ill, in the real world real bombs KILL people, you can never exaggerate terrorism, NEVER.

Kerrywinkle should have never used the word exaggerate, terrorism cannot be exaggerated. To accuse one side of pandering, yet not see that you’re as guilty of the same is ridiculous.

With the now occupation of Iraq, yes evidence is being proven otherwise, is intelligence a foolproof method with out room for error, NO. It never has been and it never will be, Clinton had the exact same intelligence, which was also proven inaccurate. At the end of the day, was the removal, of sadistic saddam worth the lives and effort… will we know. To all the fucking know it alls, could you please inform us of the next terrorist attack, the time, location and size, seeing as you are know it alls, this should be easy. We will never suffer another attack, because you guys can tell us when it will occur, BEFORE it happens.

Well, Bill, I'm not sure I would have put the severity of the threat quite the way you put it, but there are credibility issues at stake. Ever hear of the boy who cried wolf? We need to take the threat seriously, but false alarms like Kerry referred to don't help one iota. And you DON'T need to be a 'know-it-all" to know about the boy who cried wolf.

Got your duct tape and plastic sheeting in place?

Of course it's not the way Frank would describe the threat.

Frank wants us all to pretend with him that this is the story of the boy who cried wolf, and to see how smart little Frankie is to have figured it all out.

Little Frankie and the Boy Who Cried Wolf

Little Frankie runs around the village yelling.

"Everybody, look at me, look at me !"

"I am so very , very smart. Don't listen to the Mayor, Listen to me, listen to me, the wolves can't really get ready to eat us in 45 minutes.

Don't listen to the Mayor, listen to me, listen to me! I am so very smart!
The wolves don't have any little robot planes either ! "

Gee Frankie, you're right! Why not a single one of those people in Spain was killed by a wolf who had a little robot plane!

Why, no one at all has ever been eaten by a wolf with a little robot plane!

Let's all go back on the playground and play with Frankie again.

----------------------

On the other hand, in real life- especially after 2,000 people in the village get eaten by wolves, and people in villages all around keep being attacked and eaten by wolves, most people might not want to play.

They might not want to argue with Frankie the Village Idiot about whether or not the mayor and the town council knew exactly how long it might take the wolves to get ready to eat us, or whether or not they had little robot planes.

They might think a wolf hunt was a very, very good idea.

They might think people who shelter wolves or feed wolves should be treated like wolves.

If they were charitable people, they might think Village Idiots should be enrolled for proper medical care and vocational training where applicable.

Grumpy, your latest resort reads like your main complaint is that Kerry said something he didn't say. He never said terrorism wasn't serious.

Find me anything comparable to your ridiculous charges. Anything.

Frank,
It's over, a fork has been stuck in you and you're done. I remember when Muhammad Ali finished off the bum of the month, the loser sometimes staggered around insisting he was still in the fight. You still don't get it. You probably never will You're monomaniacal obsession with the trivial---the captain lied to you about the position of the deck chairs on the Titanic--has become laughable. As the terrorists lead you off to their reeducation camps to teach you Sharia law (they'll never execute such a 'useful idiot') you'll no doubt be insisting "Cheney lied".

I think it'll be over when you close the thread, because as long as people like Grumpy can't bother to look up the word "exaggerate" and refuse to use the English language like a reaosnable person, there will be idiocy to combat. Grumpy's and your repetitions, attempts at humor, cuteness, and so on, don't alter the truth: Kerry is not complacent about terrorism, never said we should ignore it, but did point to specific areas where the threat had been exaggerated. I'm shocked that you don't see that -- and also shocked that you resort to infantile tactics when people disagree with you.

It's far from over - - every time you post something half-baked, it deserves a response. The answer to your stupid ideas is reaosn, not silence.

I patiently wait for Grumpy to come up with a single instance where Kerry argued we could ignore the threat of terrorism. But I am not holding my breath.

All those who have their three days' supply of water, plastic sheeting, duct tape, flashlights, battery operated radios w/ batteries, canned goods, and so on (as recommended by the department of Homeland Security), chime in that you do.

Because you don't think the threat has been exaggerated.

All those who don't have these supplies? You do think the threat has been exaggerated.

Got it?

Frank,
I recommend smelling salts before you get the vapors. So you're "shocked"! Well, reality can sometimes be shocking. Your obsession with the trivial aspects of what Cheney said--about which your interpretation is infantile to begin with---is beginning to seem, well, strange. It resembles a jilted lover's endless obsession with the supposed imperfections of his former beloved. Even if true, they're so trivial as to remind one of Shakespeare's comment that "love is a madness". Time to move on Frank; find someone else on whom you can bestow your passions. John ForAgainst Kerry could be the man for you. Good luck in your quest for perfect love.

Stephen, you brought up an out-of-context quotation from the WaTimes without doing your homework, suggesting that Kerry was complacent. I've answered you so well that you can't respond coherently -- evasiveness and distraction is all you have to offer.

All you and Grumpy have as a position is "we were justified anyway." Whether or not the invasion was justified, you were wrong about Kerry's exaggeration argument.

Try dealing with each of the points Kerry raised as exaggerations, and show why they were not exaggerations. That would be cogent. Then you might sound credible — but the evasiveness you've practiced so far haven't added to the debate a whit.

And Steve, tell us about your survival kit while you're at it, since you don't seem to feel the threat has been exaggerated.

Frankle, we know Johnny isn't stupid enough to come right out and say he doesn't take terrorism seriously.

He knows he has to get a few more votes than just the Village Idiots if he wants to be the Mayor.

Why, I even heard him not only say that he never said he didn't take terrorism seriously, he said that he thinks it might even require a military solution--sometimes. Maybe he even thinks that sometimes it might require voting to pay for the military solutions he already voted for as being necesary.

Yeah, he sure does look cute in that brand new suit.

Don't believe any of that stuff about him steppin' out on you with those French Babes. Johnny is your man, he would never do Frankie wrong.

Grumpy, do you have a survival kit with all the items recommended by the Department of Homeland Security?

Frank,
You once again betray your silliness. I do have the basics of the recommended survival stuff---however, unlike your man Kerry, I believe the best defense is a good offense. Take the war aggressively to our enemies, as we've done in Afghanistan and Iraq--over the objections of those like you. Oh yes, Kerry is all for funding "responders". He wants to play defense--wait for the terrorists to attack us again and then efficiently remove the bodies of our dead and put out the fires. Not a mention in his speech yesterday of going on the offense. In his worldview, the use of forcefull measures to preempt is not sufficiently 'nuanced'. So it's a matter of strategy. I prefer the 'take it to the enemy' strategy, fight them in Iraq rather than in Prospect Park. But to each his own.

Frank

In all seriousness should you not be concerned that the fact remains a call for such items are even necessary, think about it. Did the trade centers get attacked yes or no, did anthrax make its way into certain sects of the government, did and is there still a fair certainty to more attacks occurring.

Your riddling of whether to worry or over worry is stupid, that simple fact is we do have cause for concern, why don’t you deal with that. Quit with the over reaction bit, ya there’s over reaction or did you miss the news bleep on the WORLD FUCKING TRADE CENTERS disintegrating into thin air. Your pompous arrogant pious attitude of why are the poor fools so worried about terrorism, look I’m brilliant and know better then to over react, well there are folks out there that take and considered the threat very real, what’s it take, you losing someone close and dear to you. ASSHOLE.

I apologize for the asshole remark, I'm wrong for saying it. I was being the asshole. Its just we seem to regard the deaths as past history and its some sort of therapeutic push to forgive and forget. I will not forgive those acts, I can’t.

Frank,
Bill's graceful apology should not make you ignore his point. There is something truly repellent, though not shocking, in your supercilious dismissal of the danger we all face. It trivializes the carnage, death and suffering many whom we know and knew suffered on 9-11. Perhaps it's you who owes an apology.

Bill, your apology would be commendable if their were any reason to think Frank was involved or interested in a dialogue. We've pondered long ago here what it would take for Frank to take this seriously. It's been months now of nothing but Frank's obsessive rant's. You won't be hearing any apologies from me.

Personally, I think your guess as to if Frank were a body part, which part would he be was quite accurate.

All that Frank knows is that he has found a handful of statements that he can keep saying NOT TRUE, NOT TRUE, over and over and over. He hasn't a clue to reality or a single idea to offer.

Now he thinks he can prove that no one else should be considered as serious unless they have an "emergency kit."

What an asshole, to borrow your phraseology.

I like President Bush's emergency kit. The US Air Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines, the Reserves and the National Guard.

Send 'em to Afghanistan and either capture or kill the terrorists. Send 'em to Iraq. They didn't want to comply with a ceasefire. So don't. We decided to enforce it.

Hunt down the terrorists. Capture or kill them.

If a Village Idiot could take things seriously, he wouldn't be a Village Idiot.

Frank likes to whine about not taking him seriously. I take him very seriously. There are lots of people like Frank out there. That's how things got as bad as they did before anybody did anything about it. In Spain, they just made the Village Idiot the Mayor of the village. Don't think it can't happen here.

This is war. Being the Village Idiot in war time isn't at all amusing to me. It gets people killed.

Stephen, you're offensive: I have never trivialized anything.

On second thought, no- not an asshole.
That would imply a useful function, rather than something which by it's nature is always an impediment to useful function.

More like a hemmerrhoid, or an ulcer- something that serves no useful purpose at all and may come and go and vary in its level of annoyance and production of discomfort.

At the same time, it can become something serious enough to require the expense and pain of surgery to finally be free of concern over it.

Maybe an ulcerated hemmerhoid!

Frank,
Sometimes I wonder; are you disingenuous or just plain unaware? YOU take offense?? Can you possibly not know that your sneering condescension to those who take terror seriously and are trying to protect against it is offensive. You dare to question how WE prepare for the possibility of terror??Attend to your own life Frank; from your fantasy cocoon you haven't earned the right to question how others deal with the real world.

Nice little dinner party you have here, Stephen: invite the guests in and then put them down if they disagree with you. In fact, you do everything you can to ignore what your guests say.

Niiiiice.

You know well what I've been saying here. It's no good to try and change the topic of the debate: you messed up by taking the WaTimes literally, didn't do your homework, and now you want to blame those who know better than you.

Like that Wes guy said, nice little bar conversation. I can only imagine the impression you make on complete strangers.

Frank,
What happened to your resolution to let the readers decide? By accusing others of what you yourself are doing you remove all doubts anyone might have about your powers of ratiocination. I've had mentally handicapped folks to dinner who made more sense than you and were certainly not as boorish. You are a living definition of a fanatic: one who redoubles his effort when he's forgotten his aim. Give it up--you're making a fool of yourself and are becoming an embarrassment, a little like the followers of Lyndon Larouche I see on the corner of 86th and Lex. They accost passersby, demanding they sign a petition to remove Dick Cheney because of the Halliburton plot and the neocon-spiracy. They follow you down the street and won't give up until you stop, turn and forcefully threaten to call a cop. Please, I'm asking you nicely, stop now, halt, desist. Pause to allow some Betz cells to fire in your brain to form a thought. Then try something new: keep it to yourself.

Well, I like most of your essays Stephen, but if this is supposed to be a dinner party the entertainment value is waning. The guy doing the Village Idiot skit is getting more than a little tedious.

Give him a couple bucks for a meal and tell him the show is over.

When do we eat?

Stephen, you have the most absurd idea abuot what constitutes discussion. You still haven't responded to my first post in this thread three days ago. All you can do is evade the question by trying to reframe it.

You lose again.

Grumpy,
I've started already with a double shot of Gentleman Jack to ease the headache induced by the boy who came to dinner--and refused to leave. Soup's on and I've removed one seat from the table. But when he leaves the house I'll make sure to count our spoons.

John Kerry of all people now claims that, because Mr. Kay's Iraq Study Group has not found stockpiles of WMD or a mature nuclear program, President Bush somehow "misled" the country. "I think there's been an enormous amount of exaggeration, stretching, deception," he said on "Fox News Sunday." This is the same Senator who voted for the war after having access to the intelligence and has himself said previously that he believed Saddam had such weapons.

--from the WSJ

"A seawind changes less often than the mind of a weak man."

--An Old Irish Saying

I was mistaken yesterday when I typed that a couple points remain unsaid.

• The idea that the dissent you encounter here approximates that of a relentless LaRouche supporter is wide of the mark. On your web site you are not some idle pedestrian: you got up on a soap box and proclaimed your ideas. The dissent you are encountering here is closer to what you would find if you spouted silliness at Speaker's Corner. So your metaphor is laughably wrongheaded, and only shows how little you understand the impact of your own actions.


• Whoever it is that is so fond of quoting Samuel Johnson would do well to remember his essay on vanity in a stage coach. The peacocks here preen so triumphantly on a blog which apparently (judging from the statistics at site meter) gets a mere 2,000 visits a week. Nielsen NetRatings reports there are over 150 million active internet users in the US alone. Your 2,000 visits -- undoubtedly many repeaters, just judging from this thread -- represent a BB pellet rolling down an eight lane expressway. Who the hell do you think you're preening for? Have you no self-respect?


• If you really want to get rid of your critic, you should show why he's wrong: deal with the specific points Kerry raised as exaggeration, and show why the claims that those threats existed were not exaggerations.


• Tim Berners-Lee would hang his head in sadness if he saw this thread. I'm sure that when he envisioned the World Wide Web he saw it as enabling the exchange of ideas; if anything, this thread shows how much easier it is to avoid that exchange on the Internet than in real life. Were the Horsefeathers peacocks here out in the real world -- a bar, on a real soapbox, or live on television -- they wouldn't get away with evading and weaseling to anything like the extent they practice it here.


• I've been to your dissenter's blog through the link here, and since it looks like he lives in Brooklyn, I very much doubt that anyone can fear he's forgotten the lessons of September 11.


• So far, the dissent has the better of the argument, because the Horsefeathers peacocks haven't even bothered to show up.

I was mistaken yesterday
Yes.
You now have a 2 day streak going.

Grumpy, Your wife/husband must be in perpetual awe: your wit knows no bounds.

OK, so you're not married, maybe you print these out and send them to your mommy so she knows you done well...

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Communism has nothing to do with love. Communism is an excellent hammer which we use to destroy our enemy.

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