There is something unspeakably vile about the British "Upper Class". They reek of anti Semitism and crypto Fascism as can be witnessed today regarding their opinions about Jews, Israel, America.

Rita. Just read your post (I saw the NYT review). One way of looking at Moseley, Diana and Unity was that they were the peaceniks of their time. They very much disfavored war and favored talking to Hitler, as did most Brits (Google Chamberlain), just as most Americans today favor talk, talk, talking to Iran, North Korea, et al. It's easy today to condemn Diana and Unity for cozying up to Adolf, because we today know what Hitler did. But was it known in the late 1930s what he would do? Hardly.

Was it known in the 1930's? How ignorant of history can an adult (I assume you are over 18) be, even given the absysmal lack of history in American schools. It was obvious in the early thirties, once Mein Kampf had been published. Ever read it? Or even about it? Hitler's poisonous antisemitism was made clear from the start, as well as his intentions. Of course it didn't bother the Mitfords, who were rabidly antisemitic themselves. The Nazis began beating Jews up, cutting the beards off elderly Jews and making them scrub the streets with toothbrushes, and painting JUDE on shop windows and then smashing them, long before the climax of Kristallnacht. That was in 1938. Never heard of it? Windows smashed, storekeepers beaten, synagogues set on fire, a countrywide pogrom carried out with official encouragement. Oh, it just occured to me--your question must be satirical.
-Rita Kramer

Sorry about my "absysmal lack of history," Rita, but I stand by my assertion that reliable crystal balls had not yet been invented by 1936.

Is Tyk kidding? In the late 30s all the British people knew exactly what was going on. The only thing they did not know was what to do about it....whether to follow the path of appeasement of Chamberlain, or the overtly anti-Semitic and pro-Nazi path of Oswald Moseley and his rotten in-laws.
And by the way Tyk which useless idiot "peacenicks" do you refer to? If you mean Fonda, Ifshin, Ramsey Clark et.al....those who gave encouragement and comfort to enemies killing our troops then the Mitfords could be in that group. Or, do you mean Sean Penn, Nancy Pelosi et.al. who take tea with thugs and murderers?

Wonder where Winston Churchill got his crystal ball.
--Rita Kramer

Try this, guys: 1) Ahmadinejad is anti-semitic; 2) many Americans favor talks with Ahmadinejad (as opposed to invading Iran); 3) are these Americans anti-Semites? Yes or No? Now try it again, but plug in Hitler for Ahmadinejad, Brits for Americans, and Nazi Germany for Iran. Is your answer the same? I don't know much about Moseley, except in reading from and about the Mitford sisters. I do know he dressed life a buffoon and had a Doug Fairbanks mustache, so it is understandable that his costume raised Jewish passions in London. I've never heard that his efforts for peace were insincere, and that he secretly had a plan -- should he get into power -- for a UK holocaust. I'll humbly stand corrected if you can send me a link to documents showing that he did. By the way, though I've never met any of you, I love all of you and wish you, your families, and our nation continuing safety, the same as I wish for myself and my family. Happy holidays and a secure and prosperous New Year to you all. tyk

Dear Tyk,
You've put your finger on it--but wrong way around. The point is that Ahmadinejad is indeed like Hitler and the lesson history teaches is that he should be stopped now, just as Hitler should have been stopped then. The desperate wish for peace was represented by Neville Chamberlain, who went to Munich to talk with Hitler and came back with the promise of "peace in our time." A large part of the British public then, like the Americans you refer to, hoped against hope that a brutal dictator could be influenced by talk and would abide by treaties The result of their gullibility and the failure to stop Hitler early on was the worst war the world had ever seen. Regarding policy toward Iran, see "Iran Ups the Ante," at www.Investors.com. To learn more about Mosley, his actions and his beliefs, see the Wikipedia entry under his name and in particular the list of sources at the end. Plenty of evidence there of his ties to Hitler and his antisemitism. (It was not his costume or his mustache that disturbed Jews in England at the time, it was his affinity for pogroms and his support for Nazi leaders whose intentions were clear enough by then.)Happy New Year!
Rita

Rita. I took your advice and read Wikipedia on Mosley (I've been misspelling his name, I see). I don't believe I've read anything else about him per se. According to the account -- and I'm aware of Wikiped's limitations -- the Blackshirts physically ejected hecklers from political rallies (legal), and attempted to break through illegal street barricades, but there is no mention of gratuitous violence by Blackshirts against Jews, as there was by Brownshirts in Germany. Some people seem to view the entire Hitler era as a Holocaust continuum: just for the record, I tend to think of the German Holocaust as having begun at the moment salaried government employees, as their job description, began murdering citizens. That turn of events coincides more-or-less with the U. S. Declaration of War and the Wannsee Conference, about six weeks later. Things that happened before, all back through the 30's, were ghastly, to be sure, but at least they were not murder by government, and not, in the way I look at it, part of the Holocaust. I believe what happened was that Hitler hoped, right up until the U. S. war declaration, to reach a peace agreement with the UK. Once the U. S. came in, he knew this would never happen, and so turned loose the dogs. Happy New Year. tyk

Tyk, I thought we were discussing the Mitfords and endemic English upper-class anti-Semitism as exemplified by Moseley's Blackshirts, not the Holocaust. At any rate, I think there's little to be gained from continuing this. If all of the preceding comments by others as well as myself con't convince you, nothing will.
--Rita Kramer

Rita. Every non-Jew is anti-semitic, just like every Jew is anti-everyone else. It's called identity politics: every interest group trying to stick its hands in the pockets of every other interest group. The only question is: Is there civility? I read the Mosley wiki article -- at your suggestion -- and saw no mention that Mosley or his wife or sister-in-law, Unity, ever 1) broke any Jewish shop widows, 2) ever abused any Jews (except hecklers), or 3) ever exhorted their thugs to do either. I offer you the idea that Hitler would not have liked it if they had. Der Fuhrer was trying to make a deal, and trying to look respectable as he did. Mosley was a line of communication. Had a deal been worked out, Germany could have (eventually) attacked the USSR all by itself. Western diplomats and correspondents would have continued to be welcome in Berlin, and the Holocaust thus would have been impossible. If you have any cites, on any Mitford/Mosley bad manners, please send. tyk

I think this is useless, as I said in my last post. You keep setting up straw men (not every dangerous anti-Semite breaks windows, some just spread poison, like the Moseleys) in a way that can only be described as silly. There is a whole literature on the issue of what the Mitfords were like, try reading some of it if you are really interested anddon't just read Wikipedia. But I suspect that you have an agenda and that nothing I, the others who have added comments here, or anything in print could shake you from your stance. I find discussing this with you, as I've said, a waste of time and will leave you to your own opinions. G'bye.
--Rita Kramer

Nancy Pelosi visited a potential U. S. enemy (Syria) last year. Though she has no husband swaggering around Washington in Muslim get-up, Mrs. Pelosi's trip otherwise was perfectly analogous to Unity's and Diana's contacts with Hitler in the late '30s -- women attempting to defuse hostilities between their country and a foreign power. I resent Mrs. Pelosi's interference (though not Jewish, I am pro-Israel), but apparently no harm was done. As war in Europe, began, Diana remained unswervingly loyal to the U. K. This did not, however, keep Churchill from throwing her in jail, not for any substantive reason, but just because of symbolism (tarring her with the same brush you now have in your hand?). The war is over, Rita. Try dwelling on substance and letting go of the war-time propaganda. tyk

How offensive. "The war is over...wartime propaganda"? If that is all you take from the Mitford saga and from the events it was connected to and contributed to, and if nothing that has been said above by me or by any of the other commenters on this post has shaken your smugness, there is no more point in continuing this "conversation" than there would be in trying to reason with Mosely himself or with his admired Fuhrer. Yes, Tyk, that war is over . (I particularly loved your one-of-my-best-countries-is-Israel ploy) But as long as there are people around who are blind to what those like Diana and her husband represented (Churchill jailed them "for no good reason"? For God's sake, Tyk, where is your sense of proportion?) and there are plenty of them--in fact I suspect I may be talking to one here-- the hatred and the killings will go on and on and on. Give it up, Tyk, your analogies are silly and couldn't impress anyone who knows history--and not from Wikipedia--and understands the awful past and its legacies in the present. You can go on with your nonsense but I won't be reading any more of it..
--Rita Kramer

Rita: Wikipedia not my idea. You referred me. tyk

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